drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  56

  What To Say When Someone Says "If U Can Find A Religion That's Better......

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "if you can find a religion that's better than jehovah's witnesses, let me know where i can find it".....i've heard jws say this in defense of "the truth" that they know is not 100% right.. what would you say to a witness that suggests that jehovah's witnesses are still better than all the others???

  ?.

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  drew sagan

  This is a typical trick used to divert attention away from what is really at issue
  
  Either the Watchtower has been chosen by God or it has not. If it has then let us follow them, if they have not then there is no reason to look down on people who do not stick with the organization. Check the evidence and see if the organizations claims stand on their own. No need to talk about any other religion other than the Watchtower. Can't they prove they are the truth by simply talking about themselves and not other groups?
  
  I find this response actually quite amusing. It is somewhat assuming that even if there are major problems to be found, or truths that turn out to be false there still is a reason to stick around no matter what. It's the closest a JW will usually ever get to admitting that he may not have the truth but he doesn't really care if he does.
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  29

  would you still be a JW?

  by BR25 in

  1. social
  2. current

  from coming on here from time to time i notice there is many disfellowshipped ones and alot of those who didnt like their freedoms taken away from them.

  ignoring what you have researched and know now how many of you, honestly if there was no disfellowshipping and say you were allowed to have more freedoms such as playing sports, how many of you would still be witnesses?

  once again ignore ever coming on here for insight and so forth.

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  drew sagan

  The Jehovah's Witness religion is a totalistic system. The fact that there is no room for personal freedom defines much of what it is. To talk of those restrictions and attitudes not being present is to speak of another religion, totally separate from the JWs.
  
  It might be a tolerable place to be if this attitude was not there, but it always will be. It is more than just a set situation, it is a quality that defines their theology!
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  3

  need january 08 study edition

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i know i downloaded it when it became available, but for some reason i can find it on my computer.

  if anybody has a copy they can put up on a file share it would be most appreciated :) .

  btw, the latest edition i have is april.

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  drew sagan

  i know I downloaded it when it became available, but for some reason I can find it on my computer. If anybody has a copy they can put up on a file share it would be most appreciated :)
  
  BTW, the latest edition I have is april. Is may and june out yet?
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  4

  Apocalypticism + Populism = Jehovah's Witnesses

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  apocalypticism + populism = jehovah's witnesses .

  in thinking broadly about the various aspects that make jehovah's witnesses who they are and the world-view they prescribe to, i have come to the conclusion that there are no two things that make jehovah's witnesses who they are more than their blending of social populism with apocalyptic speculation.

  jws see the world as being run completely by elite institutions.

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  drew sagan

  I think JWs have recently reached this point and will try to gradually weaken their radical eschatological beliefs in favor of a more moderate discourse, which will be closer to mainstream christianity.

  This is probably the most likely scenario. Putting off apocalyptic expectations does not last forever. Some groups take radical action to try and fulfill their expectations personally (peoples templet, heavens gate, ect.) Other groups simply continue to come up with new expectations and dates, although the movement suffers because after each disappointment more leave. The most rational and least dramatic is to make slow changes over time.
  
  At this point I see the Watchtower as being in a state of limbo. They have continued to suspend and postpone their apocalyptic speculations but refuse to add more meaningful components to their ideology. They need to start slowing changing and planning for the future, but I don't see it happening. They stubbornly continue to proclaim that the end is near. Their followers can't be in a state of constant expectation forever. They are going to need other goals that help keep them as loyal members.
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  4

  Apocalypticism + Populism = Jehovah's Witnesses

  by drew sagan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  apocalypticism + populism = jehovah's witnesses .

  in thinking broadly about the various aspects that make jehovah's witnesses who they are and the world-view they prescribe to, i have come to the conclusion that there are no two things that make jehovah's witnesses who they are more than their blending of social populism with apocalyptic speculation.

  jws see the world as being run completely by elite institutions.

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  drew sagan

  Apocalypticism + Populism = Jehovah's Witnesses
  
  In thinking broadly about the various aspects that make Jehovah's Witnesses who they are and the world-view they prescribe to, I have come to the conclusion that there are no two things that make Jehovah's Witnesses who they are more than their blending of social populism with apocalyptic speculation.
  
  JWs see the world as being run completely by elite institutions. This in itself isn't a bad assessment. Our modern bureaucratic societies do generate a large gap between "the people" and those who are in positions of power.
  
  Rutherford was the master as using populist ideas in order to convince his followers to accept a religious message. Instead of focusing on "taking back power" as some political populists argue, Rutherford instead convinced people they should give up completely on trying to change the system.
  
  But why?
  
  Because he believed that the battle between "the people" and the elitist "satanic" institutions would be destroyed not by the people themselves but by "Jehovah's Kingdom". No need for people to change society because our solid predictions about the apocalyptic events to soon occur are undeniable truth. At least they thought they were.
  
  The longer time goes on the weaker the Watchtowers argument is for standing on the sidelines. Even during times when positive social change was happening (the American civil rights movement for instance) the Watchtower argued that all should sit on the sidelines and wait for Gods Kingdom. As the years go by I believe it will be more difficult for the Watchtower to present the idea that the best way to stand up for the innocent is to sit by and do nothing.
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  24

  New Special Talk Outline: #170 Who Is Qualified to Rule Mankind.pdf

  by Scully in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  thanks to alphaomega for this most recent gift to jwd members!.

  who is qualified to rule mankind?.

  because the link is dependent on download activity, feel free to be fruitful and multiply download and propagate so this outline reaches as many people as possible..

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  drew sagan

  While making it evident that Jehovah's Witnesses are strictly neutral as to the world's politics, explain in prac-tical terms why God's Kingdom is far superior to any human government. Contrast the abilities of Jesus Christ with the limitations of human rulers

  And while the rest of humanity tries to find pratical ways to deal with the real world, the JWs continue to argue for nothing. Saying you believe that it is more "prac-tical" to trust Gods Kingdom as opposed to "mans governments" is totally stupid. Like there is anybody on the face of this earth who actually hates the idea of a God fixing all our problems.
  
  "I was going to let this all powerful God run things, but you know I think that McCain really has something special"
  
  The Watchtowers comparison is so stupid it's laughable. Human government arises not because people don't believe in the power of a particular deity but because they are the only ones (at this point) willing to take the job.
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  6

  Shunning policy from the 1920's

  by tsar_robles in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i found this post in you tube:.

  "in the meantime the brother may merely be treated in the kindly, courteous way in which it would be proper for us to treat any publican or gentile, withholding the special rights or privileges or greetings or voting opportunities that belong to the church as a class separate from the world" (wt 3/1/1919, p. 69).

  can anyone in this forum validate this quotation?

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  drew sagan

  let me try this again:
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  6

  Shunning policy from the 1920's

  by tsar_robles in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i found this post in you tube:.

  "in the meantime the brother may merely be treated in the kindly, courteous way in which it would be proper for us to treat any publican or gentile, withholding the special rights or privileges or greetings or voting opportunities that belong to the church as a class separate from the world" (wt 3/1/1919, p. 69).

  can anyone in this forum validate this quotation?

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  drew sagan

  they are real.
  
  
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  10

  slower to chase down those that disagree?

  by IMustBreakAway in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps this is a local phenomenon.

  but it seems the elders are slower to chase down those that disagree, or have faded in the past few years.

  i have heard (and seen) in the past where someone even remotely outspoken about disagreeing with the watchtower or some such would get the fury of divine retribution brought down upon them in an instant.

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  drew sagan

  Me and the wife got the witch hunt last year. Maybe it's that people are getting better at fading ;)
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  75

  The "Historical Jesus" and Christian Faith

  by Narkissos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in the wake of lovelylil's recent threads on the "historical jesus," a side question.. let's assume, for the sake of the discussion, that the four canonical gospels are not historical accounts of jesus' life, but a much later elaboration of christian faith in narrative form -- there are many reasons for such a proposal, but i'm not going into them right now -- let's just assume.. what do you think would be better or worse to find out in the historical field, from the perspective of christian faith:.

  1. that there was no "historical jesus" at all, and that the gospels are essentially a religious myth made (hi)story, "the word made flesh" so to say;.

  2. that there was a "historical jesus" completely different from the christian saviour -- for example, a galilean apocalyptic prophet and political zealot, trying to cleanse the nation and the temple from both the roman occupation and ritual disorders, with no interest at all in starting a new universal (i.e.

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  drew sagan

  I'm coming in late to this thread, but i'm giving my opinion anyway.
  
  There may be a bit more theological flexibility under the second option, but I think the is better for the believer. Many Christians don't believe stories such as Jonah to be completely true, so why not the gospels. Sola Scriptura isn't everything.